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The Master – disciple relationship in the Chinese martial art tradition
The Master – disciple relationship (hereafter referred to as “MDR”) is one of the main points related to the practicing and transmission of the Chinese martial arts (CMA). What is it? How does it affect training? Does it still have a place in our modern society? In this article, I will try to answer this and some other questions related to it. I believe it is important to write about this topic because even though it directly affects the transmission of the CMA, foreigners and Chinese alike still generally misunderstand it. Foreigners tend to have a romantic and unrealistic approach to the MDR while the Chinese, knowing of its existence and cultural importance, might not necessarily understand its particulars.
As many other aspects of the Chinese culture the MDR is strongly influenced by the Confucianist thinking. During Confucius time, China was in constant turmoil, divided in different countries that would often go to war against each other. Society was far from being as stable as we have it now and life was uncertain. In the midst of all that, Confucius thought that one way to secure public stability was to have people’s roles in society very clearly defined. For him, people needed to understand what their role in society was and act accordingly. Once the people (and the leaders) were clear of their social role all they had to do was act accordingly and if everyone followed this premise social order would be the direct result. For Confucius, social order was good enough. He knew that much more than that would be unattainable, an utopian society. Therefore, he settled for the most basic need that any society would strive to acquire, which was “social order”. Following this line of thought, it is easy for us to begin to understand the basic separation that exists between the roles of a teacher and a student in Chinese culture, for they are two independent (yet interdependent) roles and the ones that are playing them are expected to act accordingly.
Furthermore, at the same time Confucius stresses the importance of roles and actions he stresses that the ones in a leading capacity must lead, while the ones in a following capacity must follow. However, he also says that the ones leading should do so having in mind the benefit of the followers, for they lead for the people and not for themselves. We can than infer that the ones teaching must teach having in mind the benefit of the students, and not (only) their own benefit. Especially because if we analyze Confucius theory, it follows that if everyone acts according to their role then everyone benefits, ergo when you benefit others your are also benefiting yourself. The same should apply for the MDR.
Once a person has decided for a martial art (or a teacher), he will usually start as a regular student for some time that can vary from a few months to a few years.
Traditionally the CMA are divided not only into martial arts, but also in styles, families and clans. Take Xingyiquan for example. If we compare it to Yongchunquan we see that XYQ is an independent martial art, therefore here we have the first division. Within XYQ the most famous lines are Shanxi and Hebei, and we have our second division. The Shanxi style is further divided in families like Song and Che, each family having their own independent clans. In a traditional teaching environment like the one we have in Shanxi, if one wishes to study the art he can do so in two different capacities: as a student or as a disciple. I will not really write much about the differences, but it is basically what you learn and how you learn it. From the point of view of the teacher, the difference is in what and how he teaches, because for regular students he will probably not go pass basic theory and might not really think much about the student’s life outside class. For a disciple there is the chance the master will go much deeper in all aspects of the art and he will feel much closer to the student’s life, having established a meaningful bond with him. From the point of view of the student, it will be more or less the same because as a disciple, he will have the chance to learn much more, but at the same time, he will have a deep responsibility towards the master.
Once a person has decided for a martial art (or a teacher), he will usually start as a regular student for some time that can vary from a few months to a few years. After a while, the student might be invited to join the clan, but what normally happens is that the student decides to accept the teacher as his master. If the master has no objections then an acceptance ceremony will follow. I might write about the traditional acceptance ceremony some other time but as for now let us stay with the main topic. During the ceremony the student is then accepted into a family-clan and establishes a MDR with his teacher and a brotherhood type of relationship between himself and the other students of his teacher.
Now let us go back to Confucius. The great thinker defined that people had roles and should act accordingly. It follows, of course, that masters should act like masters and disciples should act like disciples and in this ideal set up masters would have their disciples benefit in mind. Now, we cannot forget that masters have to think about their own benefit too – they have families and, just like the disciples, have to pay rent, buy food etc., but once a person accepts a disciple he is also, by the Confucian definition, accepting his responsibilities as a master towards his disciple. What are these responsibilities? Well maybe some obscure old book might have such instructions but as far as I know, there is no clear definition of what these responsibilities really are. However, we can analyze the word for “master” in Chinese and by doing so learn one or two things about its meaning. The Chinese word for “master” is “Shifu”, being a word composed of two characters, “Shi” and “Fu”. By looking into the meaning of these characters in classical Chinese we learn that “Shi” can either mean “army” or a certain rank in the armed forces (among other meanings that are not important to us). If we look a bit further though we see that it also means “a person that is in a position to transmit knowledge”, “the one that transmits knowledge”, while “Fu” was commonly used to address “those with a higher rank” or “one’s father” . Now we can begin to clarify our understanding of the word “Shifu” and give it two distinctive meanings that are, nevertheless, directly related: “one that transmits knowledge and occupies a higher social rank” or “one who transmits knowledge as a father teaches a son”. From the linguistic point of view both definitions would give us a good starting into any further insight or discussion in connection with the MDR, but as the second one is usually accepted in China and abroad I will then use it as the basis for the MDR.
As I have discussed, it appears that there are not any strict guidelines for the conduct of both the master and the disciple, but Confucius tells us that the master should have the benefit of the disciple in mind and vice versa. In this line of thought, we would have masters directly concerned with the progress of their disciples and disciples concerned with the well-being of their masters. The master would make sure the disciple receives the best instruction he can offer, meaning that he would be sensitive to the needs of the disciple, would do his best to make sure the disciple actually understands whatever aspects of the art he needs to understand in order to fully develop his abilities, and would not, naturally, hold back any knowledge. On the other hand the disciple would work hard to honor his master and his family, follow the master’s instructions to the letter and be sensitive enough about the master’s needs, so as to be always present whenever the master would need some kind of assistance, both in class and in personal life. It is clear that this set up is very close (if not the same) to a father-son relationship. In this kind of MDR, there is plenty of room for improving. From the point of view of the disciple, he will improve because the master has his benefit in mind, so he will teach the disciple to the best of his abilities without holding back any knowledge. From the point of view of the art itself, this set up is also highly beneficial because by having the disciples’ benefits in mind and by making sure they actually follow his instructions and train as they should, the master guarantees the continuity of his line. In fact, not only he guarantees the art is passed down, but he also guarantees that his disciples (the next generation) have a chance to become better than he is. Since the master thinks about the benefit of the disciples and is genuinely worried that the knowledge contained in the art must be passed down to future generations, he will also make sure that all the disciples have the same opportunity to learn. This means that even though he cannot make sure that all the students will put the necessary effort into training, he can make sure that all the disciples have the same chances to learn and improve equally. What an amazing set up. A pity it doesn’t work like that.
We have seen that In the MDR both the master and the disciple have responsibilities but we have also seen that there is one that leads and one that follows. The master, as the recipient of knowledge, is in a leading capacity. It is he who decides what, when and how to teach. The disciple, on the other hand, is on a following capacity, because one of his main duties is to follow the master’s instructions. One who leads and one who follows, one with absolute power, one with no power at all. It is, indeed, a very dangerous type of relationship. Provided the one with the absolute power has high moral standards and is strong enough to remain on the path of righteousness, this type of relationship might work. At least it did in the Hans Christian Andersen tales my mother used to read to me when I was a little boy. Unfortunately, we have seen or heard about this set up many times. Power corrupts, and when found in a leadership capacity few are those who do not deviate from the path. In my opinion, the result of this is a twisted version of what the MDR should really be – a mutually beneficial relationship based on respect.
The MDR today does not reflect the values I have discussed above, at least not in any desirable way. Of course, there are exceptions, but, generally speaking, that utopian, romantic idea of the MDR does not exist. It is my point of view that most of the time masters will have their own benefit in mind and once they secure their own benefit they might think about the disciples’ benefit. Now, I understand that masters need to eat and pay their bills just like everyone else, but there must be a balance between what you get and what you give. No special classical ancient rule needs to be applied here, just good and old common sense. However, if you are into ancient Chinese culture, just think about “Zhong Yong Zhi Dao”, or “The path of balance”.
It seems that people in China these days take the importance of the MDR for granted, just like one of those things you often do but you really do not know why. You just do it. In the same way, I see masters that accept disciples, not because they have a special urge to pass down their knowledge (and thus benefiting unique individuals, society and himself), but because accepting disciples is what masters should do. Likewise, I see students that become disciples because that is what students are supposed to do. Therefore, I believe that both teachers and students need to stop taking the MDR for granted and start thinking about the results of their actions. The MDR is a very special kind of relationship but it makes me really sad to see that now it is but a shade of what it was supposed to be. Nowadays we see masters holding back knowledge from students that are willing to learn. And I am not talking about students with character flaws, I am talking about good and hard working people, that would do their best to honor their masters’ name. I see masters that treat Chinese and foreign disciples differently, holding back the knowledge that foreign disciples are entitled to learn. Why? Well, first of all this kind of behavior would be denied by the same ones that perpetrate it. Of course, no master would admit that Chinese disciples usually learn much more than foreign disciples do, and if they were actually confronted and had their backs against the wall, they would try to justify this behavior using different excuses and would probably make use of the most common one: culture is different. I have already addressed this argument in my last article and there is no need to do it again. Teaching foreign disciples in a different, less efficient, manner is almost common sense for many practitioners in China. I have heard comments about how Chinese masters should teach foreign disciples that are very unpleasant and it is common for some people to see foreigners not as people who are genuinely interested and capable of learning a martial art, but as money bags. To be on the fair side I must also say that not everyone thinks like this. When this line of teaching was suggested to my master, he immediately refuted it. However, let us not confine ourselves with the foreigners.
Between the Chinese themselves, the current MDR is also, I am afraid, twisted in relation to what it should be. Even though (and I am sorry to say it) the Chinese disciples would receive better instruction from their masters, they still face problems. I am sure many masters genuinely feel the need to help their disciples, but there are those (and we must speak of them) that do not think about their disciples the way they should. When it comes to masters’ attitude and understanding about accepting disciples, I would categorize them in three groups: first the ones that really understand what accepting disciples represent and act accordingly; second the ones that do not understand what it means but take it for granted, doing it because “ it is what masters are supposed to do”; and third, the ones that might understand it or not, but have decided to accept disciples motivated mainly by self benefit. It is my experience that finding a master of the first kind is much more difficult, and the same difficulty applies for the Chinese people.
Another difficulty faced my many disciples is the fact that some masters will keep “the best part” of what they know for their own children, in case they do study martial arts. This is one of the aspects of the MDR that troubles me the most. I understand that a master will have a natural predisposition to teach his own children, but to keep some special knowledge or technical aspect of the art just for his own children does not seem to be very noble (at least from a western perspective). The problem arises because even though a disciple might never reach the higher levels of some martial art, he should at least be given the chance to do so. When you hold back on a disciple and you favor your own children with this or that technical aspect you are automatically taking away from the disciple the chance to master the art in its integrity.
In addition the problems I discussed in this article, there are still many others that I have decided to leave out. Nevertheless, the reader should now be able to have a more realistic idea of what the MDR is supposed to be and what it really is. Westerners usually tend to have a romanticized idea of the MDR, much more like the one I described in the beginning of this article. There are not many foreigners that really understand Chinese culture and this contributes to the spreading of this utopian view on the MDR. This and all the so-called “Kungfu” movies that portrait the MDR as a father-son relationship, and the martial clan as a real family. To be very honest with my readers I am not sure this kind MDR ever existed, which is not to say the Chinese teachers don’t think about their disciples. This is not the idea I am trying to pass, because many are genuinely worried about their own disciples, but we must understand that what things are supposed to be and what they really are, are different things. Perhaps we should, like Confucius, understand that we might never have some of the things we want the way we want it, and that we might have to settle down for the next best thing. Likewise, understanding the MDR by what it should actually be, as opposed to what it really is, is a mistake, and it would indeed be unfair with the Chinese masters to expect them to act as if they were in a “Kungfu” movie. It might be better to settle for what is actually attainable. Whatever that may be.
I stopped believing in Santa Claus a long time ago.






Interestingly, I see nothing Confucian regarding the MDR syndrome. CMA specifically has its own revisionist history to the extent that prior to 1850's (I will leave the exact date to the specialists), Confucuanist, scholars, intellectuals, examination takers, et)c considered CMA street art and it was treated as such.
Family art was left inside the family with exceptions but no "outsider" (outside the village community) was allowed to see such art and I am sure this is how numerous arts came into being, by people seeing a principle and adopting it to their own village art and adding/substracting to make the art 'better' or 'efficient'.
Arts like tongbeiquan, pigua, bajiquan, hongquan, etc all having some level of concept that could be made whole through insight and application.
I understand you ideas but I am afraid I must strongly disagree. The incorporation of Confucian elements into the CMAs and the ideas that Confucian scholars might have had about the CMAs are two different and independent things. Confucianism power relation principles are present in virtually all kinds of relations in China, in different forms, from the husband and wife relationship to the teacher and student school relationship. It is only but natural the assimilation of those principles in the realm of the CMAs.
As for different martial arts and how they came into being, not the focus of this article.
And regarding your ideas about principles and applications, please refer to one of my latest articles that briefly addresses the matter:
http://tadziog.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-value-of-applications-and-techniques.html
Tadzio thanks for the very clarifying article!
A question is how can a student tell if a teacher is worth following or not? Are there any signs?
George
Well, this is why not only the teacher must be willing to accept the student , but the student must also be willing to accept the teacher. First of all one must be honest with himself and understand what kind of teacher he is looking for. Even though the martial arts are about self defense (with benefits) there are many teachers that do not teach fighting and can't fight. So spend some time with the teacher, see how he teaches, if he teaches self defense, if he can make it work (fight) and if he is willing to teach. Try him at least once (respectfully spar him), see how he treats his own students etc.
Hi Tadzio
All the best for your new website!
As there is not other place to ask, I would like to ask what is the meaning behind the expressions "dark path" and "black heart"? What is the relationship between black heart and empty mind?
George
George, it is OK to use the comments for communication with me, but keep in mind you can use the contact form on the opening page of my website. I will also implement a contact form that should be available from the blog’s opening page. As I told you I am still optimizing the site.
Dark heart – Empty mind refer to some mental states that my clan cultivates. The dark path is , of course, the path of darkness and it represents the evil that you have to be willing to do when your life is in danger.
Nice article
I read as well your other article about foreigners cant understand Xingyiquan and fighting the martial world. As far I understood your point Xingyiquan is for fighting and mainly just Chinese people can learn it because of their cultural background. Why then they cant use it to fight (your article fighting the martial world). It seems that the 3 people of Song style Xingyiquan are not beginners of the art. Tey are Chinese and it seems they have practiced Xingyiquan for many years. If I understand your opinion right Xingyiquan is not preserved as a fighting art of its mordern practitioners. Then the shell must be also empty (according to your opinion what the foreigners usualy get when tey learn from a chinese teacher) because they can not use the principle of the art to fight. What for a confusion. Wy somebody then should want to get it if it is not there.
Keep on going with your nice work.
Eugene
Hello Eugene.
Let me start by saying that I don’t think that only Chinese people can learn the art. What I believe is that they surely have the advantage since they are already immersed in that culture, while a foreigner must study the art and the culture at the same time. As for your question, they were not able to fight with the art because they probably don’t know how. If they wanted to learn the art as it is supposed to be thought, as a fighting art, they would certainly have the advantage over a foreigner. However, that doesn not mean they learned it.
Also, I never said that the art is not there anymore, only that it is almost dead.
Hello Tadzio,
Yes your are rigth you only said that it is almost dead. However if the people who are the direct successors of the Song style Xingyiquan cant use Xingyiquan to figth it seems a bit questionable and why then others should be better then them. It seems that Song Huchen and Song Tielin had quite some students. Since you lived for a long time in Shanxi is there in your opinion only the Tian Zhonglan branch of Xingyiquan who realy can use Xingyiquan for fighting. And does have everybody in the Tian Zhonglan branch this ability.
How about the sons of Tian Zhonglan or people like Fan Tianbao, Li Rong etc. How about the Che style people or studens of Wu Lixiao, Xu Wenzhong or Zhao Yongchang. Many people in martial arts history claim they can fight. But where and against who they proofed it. However the clip you posted at youtube (and other chinese tube pages) of the Tian style Xingyiquan is quite impressive and I have seen quite a bit Xingyiquan. Hopefully there will be more in the future then people can understand better about the different branches of Xingyiquan.
best wishes
Eugene
Seems you did your homework eh? Just out of curiosity, how did you come to know these names? Song Guanghua’s book?
As for your questions, you must first understand that having a surname does not mean they they will have the skill for sure. Skill cannot be inherited like money, but must be forged through constant training. I cannot say that we are the only ones that train fighting sticking to the principles of XYQ, but I can certainly say that most of what I have seen is, unfortunalely, very poor.
Mr. Tian’s sons are very high skilled. Older uncle Tian Baolin is renowed for his fighting skills. As in any other family, the students that came out of the Tian branch had different drgees of interest , different levels of dedication to training and received different instruction. However, I can say for sure that the main disciples of Grandfather Tian were all accomplished fighters.
I believe we will have some other videos uploaded in the next few months.
Well I research and practice martial arts for quite some time. There are some older generation foreigners arround who lived and trained in Asia a long time ago but many of these guys mostly are unknown because they are not on the track of the Web and the younger martial arts generation nowadays dont know them. There are several ways you can come across this names. However you know that the Chinese WorldWideWeb have quite a bit information about the Shanxi Xingyiquan. I think there are also some arguments going arround in Chinese circles about the statement of Li Jinsheng and the Hong Kong and Song guys. But you must know all this firsthand. It would be interesting what Song Guanghua and his son have for a opinion about all this but maybe the people in the west will never get a chance to ever know about the talks in the Chinese internal circles. But anyway this should not be a topic for all this shallow martial art panels. You did not talk about from where the present generation of Tian style Xingyiquan people got all their fighting experience. In my opinion it is not a matter of only have the right training but also to get the experience in fighting. But how you will get this nowadays. Only sparring cant be the solution so it could prepare for something. A long long time ago a Karate guy from Europe said just go to a danger red light district and try it out but maybe this is not what a good natured person who is into the martial arts want to do and who can blame them. In his statements Li Jinsheng seems to be very unhappy with the reputation the Song style Xingyiquan got out of this (maybe somebody dont feels like this) so does he or some of his students want to have a new KungFu quest and proof their skills ? Can we hear in what the training repertoire differs between Song and Tian style.
Best regards
Eugene
How you came across the names is not important, I was just curious, because disciples of the Tian family don’t take part on the internet, with the exception of my master.
About the reactions to my master’s statements, yes, there is a lot of discussion around the Chinese WWW, but we don’t really care about it. We said what we felt we needed to say, knowing that people would react differently to the statements. We cannot waste much time thinking about these reactions. Whats the Song family thinks about it is something you will have to ask them directly.
As for the fighting experience of the present Tian generation, I cannot talk about the I already mentioned that the main disciples of Grandfather Tian were all very good fighters that accepted challenges on behalf of Grandfather Tian from different venues.
On the matter of sparring, watch my master’s videos on Youtube, the ones where he is interwied. He talks a bit about the matter.
Finally, as for differences in training, read the 3rd part of the article.
New Kungfu quest, who knows. It is possible. Let’s let things happen.
I read the 3rd part of the article. Very good. Interesting what Li Jinsheng said about the Tian fighting clan. But still Tian Zhonglan was the student of Song Tielin. He did learn his fighting skills from him ??? Why Song Tielin as the father of Song Guanghua should not have transmitted his fighting skills to his own son but to others ? Maybe Tian Zhonglan and his students specialy practice fighting more then others ? On the other side as what I understand the Song clan did also care a lots about the Neigong practice like the Neigong Si Jing. Does the Tian clan care about this aspects. Li Jinsheng will going to teach his first seminar in the western world. How the students who know nothing about the Tian Xingyiquan get started. Can they understand the fighting concepts without getting first all the basic training to develop the fundamentals.
The photos of Li Jinsheng are interesting however trough them we can not see what is realy going on. You said the door is open. Does it mean that Li Jinsheng is accepting students from everywhere and is teaching without secrets and also to non Chinese.
MASTER Li Jinsheng will be teaching in a way that people who are unfamiliar with the basic skills of Tian XYQ will also be able to benefit from attending his classes.
As for your questions about Grandfather Tian, he was a disciple of Song Tielin and certainly learned a lot from him, however he also learned much from Song Huchen and other elders. It is important to note that he went on to further develop his own expression of XYQ, his power issuing being a very good example, since it is not present in Song XYQ.
Now, about the transmission between Song Tielin and Grandfather Song Guangua, I will not comment on that. You can ask him directly.
So is Li Jinsheng welcome friends from abroad in China to see what he is doing
Sure.
The power issuing of the Tian clan is different from the Song family. You mean it is what we can see on this short youtube clip you have posted.In the Tian clan do they still do the forms and weapons practice as it is thaught in the Song family or does have everything changed. When it starts that the style of Tian Zhonglan is called not Song style Xingyiquan anymore ?